In this episode we discuss the nuances of immune support in dairy cows with Dr. Larry Roth, Vice President of Nutrition at Agrarian Solutions. We explore why many immune support products fall short, offering a little of everything but not enough to be truly effective. We discuss commonly touted ingredients for immune support like plant extracts, yeast cell wall products, vitamins, antioxidants, trace minerals, and beneficial bacteria, are often insufficient against mycotoxin challenges.
We hit on when and why immune support feed additives are best utilized and how integrating them alongside mycotoxin control enhances overall herd health, especially during the summer months.
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Scott Zehr
All right. Hey, everybody. Welcome to Ruminate This with Agrarian Solutions. I’m your host Scott Zehr. And once again, I am going to be joined today by none other than the man, the myth, the legend himself Dr. Larry Roth from Montgomery, Minnesota. Who is our Vice President of Nutrition here at Agrarian Solutions. And, Larry, I appreciate you taking time out of your day today for this discussion.
Because I really kind of lobbed you a very broad question for today’s call as an overarching theme. But I think within that question, there’s a lot to unpack and there’s a lot to understand. So, you know, here at Agrarian Solutions, we work quite a bit in the, what you would call feed additive space.
Our flagship product being DTX as we’ve talked about a number of times on this platform already. But we also have other feed additives, one called BioCycle, which would be our immune support product. And, another product that we carry is called BioCycle Plus, which is a combination of BioCycle and DTX.
So looking at toxin control and immune support. I guess my question, the overarching question for today, Larry, the, the theme of the call, if you would, as we work in this space, you’ve been in it a lot of years. I’ve been in it a few years. There are a lot of what I would classify as immune support products in the feed additive space.
So, with DTX, we have a product that we feel like is, is directly influencing, that cow’s ability to handle mycotoxins. Oftentimes when, maybe I’m out in the field talking to a nutritionist or a herd owner, they’ll tell me they’re using an immune support product to combat a mycotoxin challenge. Is that an effective use of that product? Is it not effective? Or is there a place for these products and how do they stack up during a mycotoxin challenge?
Dr. Larry Roth
All right, excellent. Well, Scott, pleasure to be here today to talk to you. And that’s a very broad question. And I’m going to say that those products that would classify themselves as immune support typically they have a place.
The question is: are they in the same realm as other mycotoxin protection products? I’m going to say typically no. The immune support products can often be good supportive therapy. We can think of them as being more second line or passive support as opposed to being front line or active support. So let me give you an example.
Let’s think of trace minerals. Think of chelated trace minerals. I think when many people hear immune support, maybe that’s what comes first to mind, or maybe some others that we’ll talk about. Certainly there’s very good research that trace minerals and chelated trace minerals have a place for enhancing immune response.
Won’t argue with that at all. The question then becomes, what is their true role with helping defend the cow against mycotoxins? Or what is their role in that passive support or second line area? So no question. The immune system needs trace minerals to be effective.
Scott Zehr
Yep.
Dr. Larry Roth
I think it’s fairly safe to say that chelated trace minerals by and large have a greater absorption than non chelated trace minerals. Generally safe to say that. The question then becomes, how is the body using those trace minerals? Are they going into other physiological uses? Probably true. Certainly some of the trace minerals are going into immune support. But just think, Scott, for a moment, all of the inflammation, all of the immune challenges going on with this cow.
Think about the old proverbial wooden barrel and you’ve got holes in the side and the water’s only going to go as high as that lowest hole. And then the water drains out. So maybe it’s that way to a degree with these immune support products. They’re going to support the cow against the respiratory issue, pathogen issues, all of the inflammation that is associated with freshening and that transition period, and then what is left over to be, supportive in dealing with mycotoxins and the associated inflammation and the accompanying reallocation of nutrients away from our more productive purpose. So basically we could say, yeah, there’s a place for the immune support products. But how active are they going to be and help and defend and protect the cow against mycotoxins and the associated inflammation.
Scott Zehr
So, and if I, Again, folks, I am not a nutritionist by any stretch of the imagination. But having spent enough time in dairy, there’s only certain levels, a lot of times by law that you can feed of trace minerals. Right? And…
Dr. Larry Roth
Take selenium for an example.
Scott Zehr
Exactly where I was going.
Dr. Larry Roth
Or just plain economic limits.
Scott Zehr
Yes.
Dr. Larry Roth
Look at the price of vitamin E. Go ahead.
Scott Zehr
Yeah. And that was my point. So if, if again, we’ve talked about this on this platform too, is this reallocation of nutrients, right? This nutrient partitioning. And if we’re supplementing extra nutrients that cow, biologically, physiologically, she’s going to put them where she deems most important.
So Larry, if we have a mycotoxin challenge during July when it’s 90 degrees out and 90 percent humidity, is she going to send those extra nutrients to the small intestine first? If the toxin challenge is high enough, maybe, or is it going to go to respiratory? Is it going to go to utter health? I think that’s how I have to understand this in my mind, the idea that the immune support products are maybe more of passive support than active support.
Dr. Larry Roth
So what, let’s use your example. It’s July. Man, it’s what? 90, 95 degrees. Humidity is 70 degrees. I don’t know what THI that is, but it’s high. We’re going to be running into some leaky gut. The cow, she’s going to do that to defend herself.
Scott Zehr
Yeah.
Dr. Larry Roth
So now we have to deal with some inflammation related to that. We have a diversion of nutrients from other uses, and the cow is going to suffer from that. One of those uses could be helping to protect the lungs. Well, now all of our trace minerals are, or antioxidants or vitamins, we can go on down the list, are relate, are being involved in the response to leaky gut that’s going on. What’s left over to help defend the lungs? So consequently we get some respiration or respiratory issues. We get maybe pneumonia.
But at the same time, we’ve got mycotoxin challenges. Well, what if instead of pumping in more and more trace minerals and the other factors to help deal with mycotoxin, excuse me, to deal with, yeah, to deal with mycotoxins, we go after the mycotoxins directly.
Scott Zehr
Yeah.
Dr. Larry Roth
So then we’ve got more nutrients to be supportive over here for leaky gut and other things. So I think that’s where DTX starts to separate itself. First and foremost, mycotoxin protection. Maybe some metabolism of mycotoxins in the rumen. But we think the foremost action is defending the capsule wall there at the small intestine, which becomes important during time. So leaky gut with the high temperature humidity index that we’re talking about in this particular example.
So we’re first and foremost defending against mycotoxins. So then there’s nutrients left over that can be reallocated to deal with the leaky gut and other immune challenges. So that’s where we would differ. You know, we’re not trying to say there’s not a place for the immune support products. I think of things like vitamins, antioxidants, trace minerals, chelated or not. Perhaps some of the yeast products, some of the beneficial bacteria.
Scott Zehr
Even plant, even plant extracts.
Dr. Larry Roth
…plant extracts, even things like the egg based specialized proteins.
Scott Zehr
Yes.
Dr. Larry Roth
Tthey’re going to be holding down pathogens so that then there’s, that’s taking a load off the immune system. So there’s more nutrients to go to other immune support type things. So, the question then becomes, are we going to directly protect the cow against mycotoxins? Or do it with whatever nutrients are left over after having tried to take care of all these other issues? So do we want to have active support or active defend and protect or do we want to be active against the mycotoxins?
Hello everybody, this is Scott with Agrarian Solutions. I wanted to take a moment to talk to you about our core values at Agrarian. So we stand by our core values in everything we do. The acronym that we use for our core values is R. I. S. E. RISE stands for Relational, Integrity, Strategic, and Excellence.
We believe that people are the ones who make a company great and are dedicated to creating long term relationships with the people of agriculture. We believe business should be done on a person to person level. So if you agree with us, let us know by emailing us at [email protected].
I guess if you’re asking me my opinion, I think you know my answer. I, uh, I like the word proactive a lot better than reactive and I would classify that the same way.
Dr. Larry Roth
And I think that’s a good way to look at it. We can talk frontline, second line, we can talk about passive versus secondary or reactive, however you want to be. Proactive versus reactive. I think here we’re wanting to be proactive. We’re wanting to be frontline. We wanted the first response is going to be defending against mycotoxins. Be the product for what it’s really intended to do.
Scott Zehr
Right. So, with that, Larry, you know, you just mentioned a number of different ingredients, if you would, that are found in many of these immune support products. And we see them packaged, you know, 16 ways to Sunday, we’ll have a little bit of yeast and a little bit of this and a little bit of that. How do we determine whether this is a good immune support product or not? And how do we approach it from our perspective with BioCycle?
Dr. Larry Roth
Yeah. Well, first of all, I liked what you said. I’ll shot in the note down on it. A little bit of this or a little bit of that. So there’s certainly research that does things, certain antioxidants like some of the plant extracts, things like grape pomace and others can have some immune benefits.
Well, how much are we putting into this product? Does it correspond to what was fed in a trial or whatnot? So that’s where we get into products, not to name any by name, and hopefully not to offend anybody or step on toes, but just to point out, there’s a whole host of products that have components, ingredients that are based upon being window dressing. Make it look nice.
Yeah, this particular plant extract, this particular trace mineral has shown benefits of certain research studies, but are we feeding that particular ingredient at a level that corresponds? Are we doing it or not? So that’s where the, I think that’s important to look at a little bit of this or a little bit of that, and how does it come into play?
And then come back to the good old, do you have some research to show that. Either you need some research to show that or you’ve got a whole bunch of really good logic to support what you’re doing.
Scott Zehr
Yep.
Dr. Larry Roth
And you know what, Scott, there’s some good products out there that maybe they don’t have the direct research about immune support, but the logic is there.
Scott Zehr
Yep.
Dr. Larry Roth
Logic is there. The field demonstrations have been there. And then the question needs to be asked, okay, you did that research study with fill in the blank immune support product and we saw some benefits. Maybe we looked at haptoglobin, maybe we, and then we need to ask what was the challenge the cow was responding to.
We could be looking at things like somatic cell count, going down the list, going down the list of potential immune responses. And the question has to be then, what were the base challenges that the cow was dealing with? Were we measuring mycotoxin levels? Oh, well, we didn’t measure mycotoxin level for this study, but see how it improved haptoglobin, see how it lowered somatic cell count.
So that means that we had an immune response and it means that if your cows are dealing with mycotoxins, we’re going to enhance immune activity. No, it doesn’t. Unless we, we know that that study had some mycotoxin challenges going on, we have no idea. And so that’s where we look at research studies, and we have a full description, a full picture of what the situation was with the cows, what immune challenges were they dealing with, and how did the cows respond. So having that complete picture of what was going on.
Scott Zehr
So, let’s finish the second part of my question first, which was, our immune support product, BioCycle. So what’s our approach from an immune, support standpoint with that product?
Dr. Larry Roth
Okay, great question. So BioCycle, what is BioCycle? Well, we’ve got two types of cell wall deficient bacteria. One that we theorize it lowers digestive tract pH. So what, how does that help? Well, when an animal is off feed, it’s not eating as much, obviously by definition.
So pH goes up in the tract because we don’t have as many nutrients being consumed and formatted and all of that activity lowers the digestive tract pH. So during an off feed or lower feed situation, we’re typically going to see a higher digestive tract pH that favors pathogens.
Pathogens love it as digestive tract pH goes up. So Scott, if we could feed an ingredient, in this case, a cell wall deficient bacteria that helps to lower, digest, attract pH, guess what? We’re going to take some of the pathogen load off of the animal. And now those immune resources dedicated to defending and protecting against that pathogen, they’re now available for other purposes.
So, number one, BioCycle and BioCycle Plus are based upon the cell wall deficient bacteria that can help to lower digestive tract pH. Not to the point where we got acidosis, but lower than what pathogens like to live. And then there’s also another cell wall deficient bacteria that we believe, from what we’ve seen with respiratory health and mastitis and somatic cell counts.
We believe that this cell wall deficient bacteria helps to enhance immune function. So two beneficial bacteria: one that controls or helps to limit, digestive tract pH and the other that actively seems to encourage the response of the immune system by producing antibodies. And then in the BioCycle Plus, we also have some of the egg based antibodies we talked about earlier.
If we can come in and like a heat seeking missile target those pathogens and reduce their numbers. Now there’s more nutrients to go into the immune system responding to different immune challenges going on. Be it mycotoxin related or otherwise. And then we’ve also got some vitamins that come into play from an antioxidant role.
So BioBycle and Biocycle plus would be supportive therapy type products. They’re really designed, Biocycle is designed when we’ve got an immune challenge, not a mycotoxin challenge. If you got a mycotoxin challenge, go DTX, get that cell wall deficient bacteria. If you’ve got some immune challenges, man, we’ve got high somatic cell count, got some respiratory issues.
But we’ve also got some mycotoxin going on, then we need the cell wall deficient bacteria that helps there. So that’s why we use, we use BioCycle Plus take the cell wall deficient bacteria that helped to regulate digestive tract PH, enhance the immune function, and then team it with the third cell wall deficient bacteria that helps the animal defend and protect against the mycotoxins.
Tell me the challenges, Scott, tell me the challenges and then we can start putting together the members of the team that will help to defend the cow accordingly. I guess the key point is I’m not trying to say that DTX is going to take care of every issue. It’s not going to take care of every issue, but it’s primary focus is going to be the mycotoxins and the associated inflammation challenges.
Scott Zehr
Yep. So Larry, you mentioned that the BioCycle and BioCycle Plus also has the egg based specialized proteins that we use, in our calf products as well. So my question is, do those egg based specialized proteins, can they survive the four stomachs of that cow? Can they, do they survive the rumen? How do we know they get to the small intestine to work where they’re supposed to?
Dr. Larry Roth
All right. Excellent. Let’s talk about that. So, the cow has a multi compartment stomach. The rumen, reticulum, depending on time of day, diet, we’re going to be, what, a pH of 5.8 to maybe a 6.3. Our concern becomes that fourth compartment, the albumasum, with a very low pH.
Well, the egg based specialized proteins have a configuration, a chemical, molecular configuration, that they’re going to be able to respond, to withstand the low pH of the fourth compartment, the abomasum. Actually, the biggest challenge is going to be the bile and the protein digesting enzymes that we’re going to encounter at the start of the small intestine.
Well, by nature, these egg based specialized proteins are designed to be bile resistant and digestive enzyme resistant. They’re designed to flow on into the small intestine, maintain their integrity, maintain their properties, let them go out there like the, as I always say, the heat seeking missile and find the pathogens that attach to them and keep them from doing their mischief.
So certainly there’s egg protein that’s ideal amino acid balance that we can feed to calves. We can consume it as humans and we get ideal amino acid nutrition. But there’s other parts of the egg protein that are specifically designed to be immune supportive and not be broken down for amino acid nutrition purposes.
So there’s research that we can show folks. Not done by us, but done by third parties that shows that the egg based specialized proteins, or let’s be more specific, call it I.G.Y. Immunoglobulins that come from the egg yolk are resistant to mammalian bile, protein digesting enzymes, and the low pH. Further, and I realize our main focus here is cows, but with calves, newborn calves, providing the IGY actually helps to increase the absorption of immunoglobulins from colostrum, the IgG.
So first of all, the IGY is designed to survive the low pH of the abomasum, the bile at the start of the small intestine and the protein digesting enzymes. It’s going to survive all of that. Get through those challenges, not be chopped up for amino acid nutrition, but maintain its integrity to help latch on to the pathogens, hold them to be destroyed by other elements of the animal’s immune system. So it’s a very uniquely designed system.
Scott Zehr
You know, that’s… when you, you tell me all that, I’m thinking of like, you know, we go back to our previous, example, the heat stressed cow, leaky gut, higher pH. That seems like it’s just right for E. coli, Salmonella, and bugs like coronavirus causing respiratory issues. And, it seems like it’d be a really nice fit to be fed during the summertime.
Dr. Larry Roth
Absolutely. If we’ve got heat stress, we’re going to see pH in the digestive tract go up and an increase in pathogens. Scott, here’s a little interesting trivia for you. People who die from heat stress or animals who die from heat stress actually die from septicemia: bacteria in the blood system.
We think of leaky gut. We have nutrients and elements of the animal’s body that leak through the small intestine into the digestive tract. We lose electrolytes, so on and so forth. But with leaky gut, we lose that castle wall and we’ve got a wide open highway for all of these pathogenic bacteria to get into the body.
So when we’re dealing with heat stress, be it in humans or animals, we got to be thinking about septicemia because that’s typically what they die from. So IGY, egg based specialized proteins, going to help to reduce those pathogens, help the animal from a passive secondary standpoint, dealing with heat stress. So it’s kind of neat, Scott, how all of this fits together.
Scott Zehr
It does.
Dr. Larry Roth
It happens, fits together.
Scott Zehr
It does. It fits together really well. And, you know, I, I’d say in, in closing I think you and I both recognize, and I think, I think everybody should, and hopefully we help somebody to recognize it, that supporting this animal’s immune system, there, there is certainly a time and a place to do that.
And I guess why I thought this was an important call today, and topic, I guess you could say is think about, I guess for me, I think about it this way: if I’m dealing with a toxin challenge and I’m, you know, I, I’m the type of guy, I’m the type of nutritionist that, you know, I, I think there’s something to feeding this immune support product, what, what are they going to range in costs?
They’re going to be somewhere between that, I’m going to say eight and 15 cent depending on the product. And I’m okay with feeding that. Well, you know, if you’re feeding a higher end immune support product in that 15 cent range, and we have a toxin challenge come up, as you said, it, it can be cost prohibitive to continue to feed more of the passive support. And so, again, these products are designed to do something different than directly attack a mycotoxin challenge.
Dr. Larry Roth
Have their purpose.
Scott Zehr
Yes.
Dr. Larry Roth
They’re designed to support the immune system. They’re having a passive or secondary or reactive approach to mycotoxin challenges. They have their place. I guess my question would be this way: what’s our primary objective? And that’s feed something to help support that? I’m not saying that things like DTX, kind of the ultimate mycotoxin protection product mean that you don’t need to feed feed immune support products. Absolutely not saying that.
Scott Zehr
I think they can be very complimentary.
Dr. Larry Roth
Absolutely. Complementary, or they can be synergistic.
Scott Zehr
Yes.
Dr. Larry Roth
Be synergistic together. Oh, now I’ve correctly defended the animal at the small intestine. Now we can feed more vitamin E, vitamin A, more chelated trace minerals to do what we really want them to do, rather than just be responsive to the mycotoxin caused inflammation. Tell me your main challenges. Tell me your objectives and then let’s put the right players on the field to accomplish those objectives.
Scott Zehr
I think that’s spot on, right? It’s, it’s getting the, I like your term, the right people on the field. I started watching the movie now, The boys in the boat, it’s out as a movie. And so I, I like that terminology too of the right people in the right seat, all rowing the same direction, you can accomplish a lot. So…
Dr. Larry Roth
Absolutely. That’s all we’re trying to do here. Let’s feed the right products in the right ways to accomplish our objectives.
Scott Zehr
Well, Dr. Roth, I, uh, again, I appreciate you taking the time out of your day to join us again here on Ruminate This with Agrarian Solutions. Folks, if you have questions, uh, you’d like to reach out, um, provide some feedback on our podcast call today or any of our podcast calls we’ve done up to this point, feel free to drop us an email at [email protected]. That’s [email protected].
And, let us know what you think. If you have any questions, comments, we’d like to hear from you. And, as always, you know, we’re, we’re here for you, so if there’s anything we can do to support you in the field, around the farm, feel free to reach out. And with that, Larry, do you have any parting words I should say?
Dr. Larry Roth
Nope. Nope. Just appreciate the opportunity to be with you today.
Scott Zehr
Awesome. Well, we will see everybody in two weeks.
